Tech Q and A => Paint n Primer => Topic started by: overspray on August 10, 2007 11:09 PM
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 10, 2007 11:09 PM
Here's some painting tips I thought about. I do have a lot more information floating around in my head, but this is a good start and should bring up some questions that I can maybe answer, also.
Since you are doing a single stage urethane, I kind of taylored these little videos to that type of material.
Title: painting tips
Post by: overspray on August 10, 2007 11:25 PM
Getting the spraygun set with a good mix of properly reduced color is essential. If you get the first coats to wet or too dry it's really hard to recover a nice smooth job.
Title: more from Dr. Paint
Post by: overspray on August 10, 2007 11:35 PM
Practise spraying a little on a test panel and see how the material flashes and wets out before you spray the body. Get the gun settings dialed in. For someone that doesn't paint a lot be careful of the speed of your passes. Too fast=dry spray. Too slow=flow checks (runs). If you over reduce the product a little it is more forgiving as far as dry spray but you should plan 1 extra coat to keep the film thickness up to maintain the durability of the finished product and it's safer for sanding out some slight imperfections.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 10, 2007 11:47 PM
Here I'm promoting over reducing slightly to end up with a flatter layout of material. This is the recipie that I used on Tom's "T". With black single stage urethane this should work well.
I don't like HVLP guns a whole lot. They need to be used with about 1 grade or so slower reducer than you would with a regular gun. If you aren't used to them it can get ugly fast. I like spraying single stage urethane wet and with a little more pressure in order to break the material up into smaller droplets and get a flatter finnish especially on vertical panels.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: sko_ford on August 11, 2007 5:03 AM
wow
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: racerjohnson on August 11, 2007 5:10 PM
Holy cow, that was awesome. Thank you. Makes me want to go paint something.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: 31Rodder on August 11, 2007 5:49 PM
you should start your own video series.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: sko_ford on August 13, 2007 3:11 AM
they are easier to understand than the ones i saw in tech school
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 13, 2007 5:57 PM
WOW great info there. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to put that together. Is the sealer I need another product or can the primer be cut down to be used as a sealer?
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: flatheaded on August 13, 2007 8:24 PM
Super job! Good info. Like they said you should put out your own videos. I know I learned a few things. Makes me a little more confident to tackle the next job. I know I'm gonna try the "eye" thing as soon as I get home. Keep up the good work!
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: JakesBackyard on August 14, 2007 1:45 AM
Good job Reed.....
Now mix up some cricket spray and load it into that model 7 and give em hell. :lol:
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Kat on August 14, 2007 2:37 AM
That's the best damn ballet I've ever seen!
Title: "tips"
Post by: overspray on August 14, 2007 4:32 PM
Quote from: "Eyeball"
WOW great info there. Thank you VERY much for taking the time to put that together. Is the sealer I need another product or can the primer be cut down to be used as a sealer?
Well, first I should know exactly what you have done from the bare metal to where you are now and exactly what brand and type of materials you have used and in what order.
I do have my "handy dandy" U-Tech technical reference manual, which lists 2 types of sealers to go under the 200 series urethane, epoxy and tintable urethane. The Tech book doesn't show the urethane primer surfacer to be used as a sealer although, I know of other primers that can be used this way.
360 or 380 series epoxy primer sealers/ both available in black
360 series with non induction (E375) hardner looks like a good choice at .75 mils per coat and can be recoated non sanding up to 48 hours with U-tech paint.
460 urethane tintable sealer (tinted with black mixing color 3 parts sealer to 1 part color) then mixed with 460 sealer activator 4 parts sealer (tinted) to 1 part activator. This can be topcoated with the paint for up to 7 days without sanding. Same film thickness (.75 mils) per coat.
Or if you have some PPG DP epoxy in black, a shot of that will work as a wet on wet sealer. That's what we used on Tom's car. There are some other products that will work also.
Give me a complete rundown on what you have done and what you have available.
The sealer can be "nib" sanded after it drys for an hour or so, before you paint. You have to do this very carefully. After sealing, you should look over the whole car very closely. You will probably find little "nibs" of dust particles protruding up from the smoothe surface of the sealer. Use fine (600# or finer) wet or dry sand paper that has been soaking in water to help soften it, to ever so lightly sand them out. The sealer film will still be soft and you have to use very light pressure to avoid tearing the sealer film. Also, sand with the paper curled up in your hand to keep the edge of the paper from gouging the sealer. Only sand right on the "nib" very softly just enough to remove it or flatten it (one finger sanding). Just do the ones that stand up about 1 mil or so. Very, very tiny ones will cover with the color coats, so don't bother with them.
Remember, you don't need a sealer over a good quality urethane primer surfacer that is sanded and cleaned. You can actually use the first coat of color as a "flash" coat. With the black urethane it works very well. Mix a very thin coat (over reduced with mostly fast reducer) and spray it on even and thin. Let it dry about 15 minutes and continue painting with regular mixed color. This is just another option.
Looks like it's time for another video. Get the info on the materials and products posted here.
I also need to know exactly what you want the finished product to look like. If you want that "traditional" restoration look, then the finish on Tom's T is pretty close (actually too nice). Like on Tom's car, you will have the option to color sand the black and buff it, or color sand the black and clear it, or even put a couple coats of clear on after the black is applied and still have the color sand and buff option.
In the late 40's or early 50's, the "traditional look" would actually have been an alkyd enamel or a nitrocelulose lacquer paint job that wouldn't even come close to the gloss of todays materials.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 14, 2007 4:35 PM
Quote from: "JakesBackyard"
Good job Reed.....
Now mix up some cricket spray and load it into that model 7 and give em hell. :lol:
How'd you know I had been invaded by crickets??
I just bought the Binks 7 for $12.00 at an auction. I had gotten rid of all the ones I used to have. It must be a nostalgia thing.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 14, 2007 5:07 PM
I used a DA on the bare steel and filler where needed. Then a Utech wash prime (yellowish). Then the 2K grey. A few thick coats them blocked then more coats block...... I called and ordered more 2k and 200 color this AM and had them set me up with black tinted sealer which I think he said is 460. I will pick it up at lunch and verify the number.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 14, 2007 5:09 PM
Quote from: "overspray"
Quote from: "JakesBackyard"
Good job Reed.....
Now mix up some cricket spray and load it into that model 7 and give em hell. :lol:
How'd you know I had been invaded by crickets??
hahah I was watching the vids the other night and Kathy thought that the cricket was in the house.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 14, 2007 5:25 PM
Quote from: "Eyeball"
I used a DA on the bare steel and filler where needed. Then a Utech wash prime (yellowish). Then the 2K grey. A few thick coats them blocked then more coats block...... I called and ordered more 2k and 200 color this AM and had them set me up with black tinted sealer which I think he said is 460. I will pick it up at lunch and verify the number.
Sounds good. Keep an "eyeball" on the temperature you are going to be spraying at. Make sure to have some fast and medium reducer to get a good blend for the temp and your spraying technique. Remember you have 7 days on the sealer, so if something doesn't look good you have time to stop and redo or make adjustments. Also the black sealer will tell you how good the body/bodywork is. Don't be afaid to stop and repair something. It's easier at this stage than later.
Worse case scenario: The paint job looks like shit---so we just call it an expensive primer practise session. No big deal. Sand it down and respray the color again. Actually, some of the best jobs are done this way. Back in the "day", lacquer was done like this all the time.
I might get snagged to go on the train shortly. I'll be back.
Do you want a spraygun or what have got avaliable?
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: JakesBackyard on August 14, 2007 5:26 PM
How'd you know I had been invaded by crickets??
Go back and listen to the first video.....You got lots of crickets!!
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 14, 2007 5:51 PM
Quote from: "overspray"
Quote from: "Eyeball"
I used a DA on the bare steel and filler where needed. Then a Utech wash prime (yellowish). Then the 2K grey. A few thick coats them blocked then more coats block...... I called and ordered more 2k and 200 color this AM and had them set me up with black tinted sealer which I think he said is 460. I will pick it up at lunch and verify the number.
Do you want a spraygun or what have got avaliable?
I will let you know after this weekend. Thanks.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 14, 2007 6:15 PM
Where are you spraying this project?
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 14, 2007 8:02 PM
Ummmm not sure.... it may be in my garage.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 14, 2007 9:20 PM
Garages work. Sweep and blow out the dust on walls, floor and ceiling a day or so in advance. Then do it again before you paint and let everything settle down. If you need to use bug spray (Raid house and garden) do that before you final wipe the body down. Let the neighbors know so they don't call the cops or fire dept because of the vapor cloud or strong smell of the urethane. It can get ugly in some municipalities if you paint at home in a residential district. If there isn't much wind when you are spraying, set up a box fan outside to help dissipate the exiting fumes. Refer to the Garage painting 101 post on the HAMB for ideas on setting up the fan system and hanging parts. I guessing you have the doors and decklid off. The deck lid is a good place to start spraying and get the mix/reduction dialed in. It's the easiest to do over if you screw up. Blow air into the room and suck a little less out so there is a positive pressure. Keep the air moving well after the last coat, then after an hour or two just a small fan blowing over the body to keep the solvents going away.
Remember:
Tack cloth-used ones are best
Tweezer with needle sharp points
Wipe towels as lint free as possible
Blow gun
Wet or dry sandpaper for nibs in the sealer
Paint strainers
Good mixing container
Mixing stick
Watch or clock
Good lighting
Drain the compressor--the day before and again the day of painting
Moisture separator at least 20 feet from the compressor
Set up a solid, sturdy vertical piece of masking paper to test the spray pattern on.
Do a walk thru (actually pretend you are swinging the gun) the way you are going to spray (ballet) to see if the area is clear for swinging the gun, the layout of the air hose and where you are going to start and end. Try not to run your strokes exactly in the same place for each coat. Vary the starting and stopping point just a foot or so different so you dont get a buildup of material on the same start and stop area. Remember in the spraying video to use the diagonal wetting strokes if you come back over the same area.
Most urethanes are ready for the next coat when the paint film is "finger slick". That means you can ever so lightly run your finger over the paint without it smudging or smearing (about 5 to 15 minutes depending on reduction, temperature, air flow, and coat thickness). Do this test on your spray testing panel (masking paper) or some masking paper on the car.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 21, 2007 6:40 PM
To Check if the STATIC ELECTRICITY CHARGE has dissapated--hold your bare forearm close to the car body, without touching it. If the hair on your arm tingles there is still STATIC in the car body.
Fiberglass and Plastic cars and parts can really build up a static charge and the charge takes much longer to disapate.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 21, 2007 6:54 PM
Spraying techniques and tips from the "KING".
"You can spray all you want--but don't spray on my Blue "Suede" Shoes."
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 21, 2007 8:07 PM
oh man...............the STATIC stuff was new to me. But I don't think I was paying attention to the the other one. Watching KING! was to distracting. :) I'll have to watch it again.
I can't get a pattern that big out of my Harbor Freight gun. I may go pick a new one up. I tried to bring my two Devilbis guns back to life but they both just pulse when you spray and I have tried everything to fix them.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 21, 2007 8:16 PM
And you all thought he was DEAD!
The "pulsing" is usually caused by the packing around the fluid rod shrinking up and letting air suck by it. It will most likely need a gasket/packing kit and a good cleaning/soaking.
The old Sharpe 775 is still available, at your disposal. It worked very well on the "NOW MORE FAMOUS THAN EVER" HUBER "TRACK ROADSTER".
I don't think exchanging the HF guns will improve the performance. The 1.4mm tip is going to limit the size of the pattern based on the volume of fluid it can discharge.
Didn't you ever shuffle your feet across the living room carpet--then sneak over to the "kitty" and touch it's nose? :twisted:
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 21, 2007 8:32 PM
Quote from: "overspray"
The "pulsing" is usually caused by the packing around the fluid rod shrinking up and letting air suck by it. It will most likely need a gasket/packing kit and a good cleaning/soaking.
I tried a new packing, if you are talking about the one on the needle just in front of the trigger. I may see if I can get a "kit" for it, not that I know how it should go together.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: JakesBackyard on August 21, 2007 8:48 PM
:lol:
It just don't get any better than that.....
Elvis and the Crickets all in one video.....
And painting no less....
I love it.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: JakesBackyard on August 21, 2007 8:55 PM
Tim...
The spurting is almost always an air leak. On your old gun the body is two pcs. that screw together. Take out the top knob (pattern adj.), look down inside and there is probably an allen fitting that you may be able to tighten to get rid of the air leak.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Tom on August 21, 2007 9:26 PM
Quote from: "overspray"
.The old Sharpe 775 is still available, at your disposal. It worked very well on the "NOW MORE FAMOUS THAN EVER" HUBER "TRACK ROADSTER".
If you use this gun make sure you have lots of air movin' to get rid of the over spray. It does a good job of keeping the orange peel to a minimum but it put's out some fog.
I have relied heavily on Reed for advice and help when I got to paint. He's always more than willing to lend a hand!!
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 21, 2007 9:47 PM
"overspray technical production videos inc." are available to do a "TomH classic gas Welding" video series.
Have your "people" call my "people".
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 21, 2007 9:57 PM
The car is all in primer now including the bottom. I am going to spray the bottom and the inner deck lid with color tonight then I can finish blocking the car.
Shoud I "paint the inside of the car body or just make some quick passes over it to seal it?
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 22, 2007 3:29 AM
Look it over and see what is actually going to show after the car has been assembled and the interior installed. Paint the areas that will show, for sure, they will have to be masked off when you do the outside. The rest is your choice. Depending on what you have in mind. you can paint the whole inside very nice (show quality) before the outside is painted or even use a brush friendly coating on non showing areas after the outside is done. If you go for the "show quality" inside it will have to be masked off very well before spraying the outside. If your very cool Merc dash is removable, paint it outside the car.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 24, 2007 2:00 PM
This guy is almost as good as the "King". (Pay no attention to the MULLET). Do a search on youtube. He has a bunch of real good short videos.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 24, 2007 2:09 PM
This is way easier than making my own videos. Now me and the "King" can drink more beer.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 24, 2007 4:52 PM
Quote from: "Tom"
Quote from: "overspray"
.The old Sharpe 775 is still available, at your disposal. It worked very well on the "NOW MORE FAMOUS THAN EVER" HUBER "TRACK ROADSTER".
If you use this gun make sure you have lots of air movin' to get rid of the over spray. It does a good job of keeping the orange peel to a minimum but it put's out some fog.
I have relied heavily on Reed for advice and help when I got to paint. He's always more than willing to lend a hand!!
Less "orange-peel" means less work cutting and buffing, if you go that route.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 24, 2007 6:00 PM
I am not going to be using the HVLP gun anymore. I picked up a new HF siphon type yesterday with a 1.7 tip and it really laid the primer down nice. The primer is visibly "shinier" than the other parts that were shot with the HVLP and much smoother when you look close. I will test it painting the deckled tonight if I get a chance. I also picked up that small gravity fed touch up gun that you showed earlier.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 27, 2007 2:34 PM
I sprayed sealer on the decklid. Had a few fisheyes so I sanded it down again and re shot it. No more fisheyes but I do have dust in it that I need to sand out. So the question is can I sand the sealer b4 I shoot the color and how fine should the paper be to spray color over?
Edit: I started to sand it at lunch with 400-600 wet. There were a few sags I did't see. I plan on shooting the paint over this coat. If I sand through where I can see the lighter primer will this effect the top coat or am I better of coating it again. Also if the sealer is wet saned is there any set time I have to put top coat on it or does the 5 day window still apply?
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 28, 2007 2:03 AM
400-600# should be OK. If you sand a run in the sealer out, remember to feather out for a few inches carefully. The sandpaper will glide over the run and cut a little "trough" on either side while leaving a little higher on the run, which will show up in the finish. Using a small block (paint stick or equivilent) will help knock down just the run area til it's flat. Kind of like filing the run down with a file. Then feather out the surrounding area lightly.
I'm not sure on the recoat time (sealer) after wetsanding. It will probably shorten the time some, but so will high temps. You are probably OK.
On the recoat you can just put a coat (of color) on the sanded areas (runs-dirt) and let that flash off then continue with a complete coat of color. Kind of like using the color for resealing those areas.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Eyeball on August 28, 2007 4:40 AM
Nuther question....what grit can I use to block out the body. 150 (dry) seems too agressive but 400 (wet) takes toooooooo damn long ( I luv body work). Can I use like a 220 dry or ???????????
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: Tom on August 28, 2007 1:27 PM
Don't know how many of you picked up on this on oversprays last video. He is talkin' about bumps in paint ( orange peel ) and is wearing a Hooters T-shirt. !!! Need I say more.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 28, 2007 3:20 PM
Quote from: "Eyeball"
Nuther question....what grit can I use to block out the body. 150 (dry) seems too agressive but 400 (wet) takes toooooooo damn long ( I luv body work). Can I use like a 220 dry or ???????????
If you are really trying to "block" something straight, 400# is to fine for the first pass. Remember to use a guide coat. Blocking means cutting the high spots down and exposing low areas. 150# seems agressive, but you need to cut the high spots without just rolling over them like you will with 400#. I use anywhere from 100# to 180# for the first block on HIGH BUILD primer. "Back in the day" with non catalyzed primer and lacquer paint, this process would take at least 6 weeks to several months for custom work. On the flat areas on the quarter panels cris-cros "X" sand with the 150# just enough to see you are flat, then switch to 220# with the same technique just to cut the 150# scratch down. At this point stay away from the body lines. Very carefully do the body line areas with the 220#. Very low spots will need filler (Glazing). If you see a lot of bare metal or the primer is getting real thin, it's going to need another couple coats, probably reduced with just a little thinner to smoothe out better, at least in the spots where you really had to block and took a lot of material off. If it seems straight before you put the last coat of primer on, then you can final wet sand with 360 to 400# (single stage urethane will fill about 360# or finer wet sanding). If you have some small bare metal areas after this (thumbnail size or smaller) the sealer will be OK to cover these. The black sealer is going to show how well you did, so set up the lighting for the sealer/paint so you can see how straight the body is as you spray.
After all this work, you will find you have NO fingerprints. Time to see if a life of crime is for you.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 28, 2007 3:31 PM
About halfway thru this video are some good block sanding techniques.
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: overspray on August 28, 2007 3:32 PM
Quote from: "Tom"
Don't know how many of you picked up on this on oversprays last video. He is talkin' about bumps in paint ( orange peel ) and is wearing a Hooters T-shirt. !!! Need I say more.
Tom knows me too well!!!
Title: some painting tips for Eyeball (overspray 101)
Post by: danz on January 05, 2008 8:02 AM
i registered to say thank you for the amazing videos. too bad i didnt see them BEFORE i painted my car today! haha
Title: Royd Oberson
Post by: tracywiedrich on January 07, 2008 1:03 AM
Royd, Boyd , Elvis, Reed, I dont know for sure what to call you anymore...I had one year of Body school at BSC and I've gotten more outta your presentations than I ever did in school...Thank You, Thank You Very Much ( in my best Elvis voice...
Title: RE: Royd Oberson
Post by: racerjohnson on January 08, 2008 5:02 AM
Reed, your articulation makes you and this tech post stand out. Amazing job teaching us all this art. I can't wait to use it someday.